Summary
The Homeland Security watchdog says the Secret Service erased texts from the day of and the day before the Jan. 6th insurrection. The Secret Service says they weren`t maliciously deleted. It comes amid reporting the Jan. 6th committee is weighing whether to push for interviews with Donald Trump and Mike Pence. President Biden is set to meet with the leaders of Saudi Arabia.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: A memorial service attended by New York Attorney General Tish James was held today at the Tops Supermarket which is scheduled to reopen for business for the first time since the mass murder tomorrow. That is tonight`s “LAST WORD”. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
[23:00:24]
STEPHANIE RUHLE: Tonight, Secret Service text messages from January 5th and 6th deleted as new details of the former guys apparent attempts at witness intimidation emerge.
And as more disturbing details surfaced from the Jan. 6th Committee, how much longer can Republicans remain silent.
Plus, Biden`s first visit to the Middle East as president is underway. What can we expect from his difficult meeting tomorrow as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Thursday night.
Good evening. Once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. There are major developments in the January 6 investigation tonight. According to a letter obtained by NBC News, the Secret Service erased. I`m going to say it again erased text messages from January 6, 2021. And from the previous day.
The letter to two House committees from the Homeland Security watchdog says those messages were deleted after being requested as part of an investigation into the Capitol riot. The inspector general says he was told many of the messages had been erased as quote, part of the device replacement program.
Tonight, the Secret Service issued a statement saying this. The insinuation that the Secret Service maliciously deleted text messages following a request is false. In January 2021 before any inspection was opened, the Secret Service began to reset its mobile phones to factory settings as part of a pre-planned three-month system migration. In that process, data on some phones was lost.
There`s also new reporting that efforts to get testimony from the two most important figures on January 6, are now under serious consideration.
The Wall Street Journal says the House Committee is now weighing whether to push for interviews with Donald Trump and Mike Pence. Member Adam Kinzinger told the paper the committee could decide to request a written interview with Mr. Pence. It could also discuss whether to issue a subpoena to the former vice president.
Kinzinger also said he expects the committee will likely decide to make a criminal referral to the Justice Department about Trump`s own actions on the 6th. That will be the focus on the next hearing exactly one week from tonight.
Meanwhile, there are more questions about the witness Donald Trump allegedly tried to contact that witness was reported to be a member of the White House support staff. Today, the committee chairman added this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MA): It was a White House employee. I don`t know how you classify support staff.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RUHLE: It comes as Trump ally longtime Trump ally Steve Bannon prepares to go on trial for refusing to talk to the committee. Today a judge denied his second request to delay that trial, and it is set to begin on Monday.
Also tonight, former President Trump`s first wife Ivana Trump has died in her home in Manhattan. They were married from 1977 until 1992 and had three children, Don Jr, Ivanka, and Eric. Her cause of death is unknown. But a New York City official told NBC News there was no indication of any foul play. Ivana Trump was 73.
With that, let`s get smarter this evening with the help of our lead off panel. Jackie Alemany joins us, congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post and an MSNBC contributor, Daniel Goldman, former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. He also served as general counsel for the House Intelligence Committee during Trump`s first impeachment. He`s now running for Congress in New York`s 10th congressional district. And my girl, former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. She`s also a law professor at the University of Alabama.
Mr. Goldman, let`s talk about these text messages.
DANIEL GOLDMAN, FMR. ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: My guy, right. Joyce is your girl and my —
RUHLE: OK, my boy, my boy, walk me through this. Why would any organization the Secret Service or otherwise think it`s OK to go through a routine system upgrade that might compromise data, data from January 6 when there was a riot on the U.S. Capitol? Are we really supposed to believe this?
GOLDMAN: So many questions, Stephanie. The first of which is is it only January 5th and 6th that was happens to have been deleted? I may — but I think clearly the most damning part of that letter is the allegation that these text messages were deleted after the request to preserve them was given.
[23:05:13]
When that happens when there`s a request for text messages, there`s something generally called a litigation hold. But whenever anyone makes a request, you hold on to things and you don`t destroy them. So it is highly suspicious, it`s conceivable that they were doing some sort of a routine phone migration. But it is unusual that they would do that after a request has been made to preserve the text messages or to turn over the text messages. So it is highly suspicious as you point out.
RUHLE: But Joyce, they had to know that we would find out that the messages were deleted, given that they were comfortable with that come getting out. What does that tell you about what could have been on those messages, that they`re willing to accept the wrath of everyone knowing that this mass deletion happened? What does that tell you? What must have been on there?
JOYCE VANCE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: So I think, as Dan is saying, it`s tough to know exactly what went on here. And the one certainty that we have at this point is the Secret Service will now have to engage in a full accounting of how this happened, because Stephanie, we had issues with data migrations in the law enforcement community, when cellphone usage was new in federal law enforcement.
And so it`s tough to believe that this happened accidentally in 2021. But that said, it`s always possible. They`re always these technical glitches, as Dan says, would all look for the most clearly is whether the time covered is only the 5th and the 6th, or whether it`s other dates, because if it`s just those two dates, then you have to be deeply concerned about the kind of communications between agents that could have been involved in those deleted messages and whether they might for instance, corroborate some of Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony.
But until we know the full length of, you know, the full scope of these deletions of messages, and whether it`s benign, like the Secret Service says or whether it`s something more devious like the IG implies, we won`t really be able to assess this.
RUHLE: Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony. And you remember over a week ago, we were told that Trump`s Secret Service person Anthony Ornato, he was going to refute what Ornato, what Hutchinson said yet we haven`t heard from him.
And our friend Michael Beschloss pointed this out tonight, that in December 2019, Trump tweeted that Anthony Ornato, that Secret Service guy would become his deputy chief of staff. For Donald Trump to name a secret staff member to a job like that, especially on the eve of a reelection campaign, that is abnormal should not have raised a serious red flag. Daniel?
GOLDMAN: Is it to me? I`m sorry. I think, you know, I think the relationship that Tony Ornato had with Donald Trump and with the White House is incredibly unusual. The Secret Service, and those who work for the Secret Service are supposed to be nonpartisan. They`re supposed to simply either protect the President or some of them are investigative agents.
And the notion that Tony Ornato would have become such a diehard Trumper to the extent that while he was protecting Trump, he made that known and so much so that he was hired as the Deputy Chief of Staff is very unusual, and it is somewhat, it is highly suspicious.
So, I think given his background, and then ultimately what his job is, if he does testify, I do think that his — you have to question a little bit of what his motives were and motives are, it is noteworthy that he hasn`t come through. There`s other reporting that indicates that the allegations that or the testimony that Hutchinson made about what Ornato told her about the limousine, The Beast going to the Capitol, and that altercation is corroborated by at least one police officer, not a secret service agent but a police officer who was there.
So a lot still remains to be seen as to what exactly happened.
I do want to make one point here which and there have been a lot of allegations about hearsay related to Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony as if that somehow diminishes her testimony. The reason why hearsay is not allowed in court is not necessarily because it`s not reliable.
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It`s because you cannot cross examine the person who made the statement. So the notion that just because some evidence is hearsay means it`s not reliable is wrong. It may not be reliable, but it very well may be and it`s no less reliable than any other testimony that might be subject to cross examination. And that`s the real reason why it`s kept out.
RUHLE: OK, Jackie, let`s say Hutchinson testimony is unreliable or untrue. Why hasn`t Ornato or anyone else in the Secret Service come forward and agreed to testify under oath and refute our statements?
JACKIE ALEMANY, THE WASHINGTON POST CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER: Two things here, Steph. I think that the further we get along here, the more the narrative and the notion that Cassidy Hutchinson is not reliable is being disproven, without corroboration from people like Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel directly, the two people that Cassidy had referenced and who would have witnessed the former president`s behavior during that time period.
You saw in that last hearing, actually, that Cassidy and Tony had a pretty seemingly friendly relationship after that seven-minute montage that outlined the tumultuous a quote unquote unhinged meeting on December 18 in the Oval Office with President Trump this Sidney Flynn, Michael Powell, Pat Cipollone, Eric Hirschmann meeting. You — The committee threw up a text message from Cassidy to Tony Ornato, the two of them going back and forth, with Cassidy urging Tony to get to the White House ASAP.
So clearly those two had a relationship, they had some rapport. And I think it just makes the notion that Cassidy would have sort of fooled this anecdote out of thin air. That was harder to believe.
That being said, I do want to add a word of caution here. We have reporting in the past few days, actually, from the Secret Service spokesperson, that Tony and Bobby Engel are still available to testify, and that they had heard from an informal channel that there was maybe some potential to get that another private deposition on the books as they had previously promised.
But as of at least yesterday, we did not follow up on that today. The committee had not formalized a specific date and given them a final invitation to come and give another deposition before investigators.
RUHLE: Joyce, how about this news that the committee is seriously considering trying to get testimony from Donald Trump and Mike Pence helped me out here. I am a mere mortal, why wouldn`t they want to sit down with these two, a year and a half ago? If I showed up dead tomorrow, the first people the police would talk to would be my husband and my mother. They wouldn`t say well grieving husband will leave him out. These are the two key players here. What are we waiting for?
VANCE: Exactly. I think that that`s a fair point, there`s no reason that the committee shouldn`t voluntarily request and then promptly follow up with this subpoena for the testimony of both Pence and Trump because this is not a court of law. This is not a case where we have to worry about who`s a witness who`s a subject who`s a target, who could be a defendant down the road.
The committee`s purpose is to get to the truth of the matter and to create a historical record that permits them to address ongoing problems. Both Pence and Trump should be subpoenaed. And at a bare minimum, the public record should reflect their failure, their lack of willingness to testify if that`s the case. Otherwise, they can show up like every other witness in this proceeding, have a closed doors, sit down with committee staff, under oath, answer preliminary questions, and the committee can take it from there, but there is no reason that they should be treated differently from any other fact witness to the big lie on January 6.
RUHLE: Jackie, do you have any reporting on that?
ALEMANY: Yes, this is something that`s been a topic of conversation for really months now. And previously, when this issue was raised, we heard from aides to former Vice President Pence, that there was no way he was going to cooperate. And that`s why we heard from people like Greg Jacobs, or Mark Short, who appeared in a videotaped deposition. Previously, people who had been willing to cooperate with this investigation, but not the former vice president himself.
We were told at the time that he felt that testifying before the committee himself was sort of beneath the office and that these people who were around him at the time had just as much of a purview to what was taking place during that time period, as he did.
That being said, as we`ve learned throughout these seven blockbuster hearings, so far, there`s nothing really more powerful than hearing a firsthand account of something that happened from the person who experienced it themselves regardless of whether or not it`s rehashing a story that we think we already know about.
[23:15:06]
I think that Joyce is also right, and that the committee potentially needs to get these two people on the record potentially rejecting the opportunity to come forward and say their piece. And at the end of the day, as the committee is obviously sort of implementing a reverse Department of Justice strategy here, I think ethically there — there`s also some obligation to offer the former president to to at least give some answers here to the allegations under oath.
RUHLE: Then why wouldn`t this committee, Daniel, want that to happen? Want these two people to be called to answer questions? And if they refuse, let the country know that, right? There`s a very good chance both Mike Pence, and or Donald Trump would like to run to be the next president, shouldn`t we know if either of these men is unwilling to talk to the January 6 committee about something they were directly involved with?
GOLDMAN: I think part of the strategy may be to wait for these public hearings. And just like all of a sudden, Pat Cipollone decided that he was going to cooperate after a few scathing for several months. There`s a lot more public pressure on someone like Mike Pence to come and testify after we`ve seen these hearings, and everybody is paying such close attention. And they`re so compelling.
If Mike Pence had been subpoenaed before we knew all of this evidence, and he had said no, I don`t think it would have made much of anyone would have been that surprised. Now, if he doesn`t want to come in and describe his conversations that he had with the Secretary of Defense that he had with other Cabinet officials that his own lawyer and chief of staff did not — did not listen to, there is information that Mike Pence has that no one else has. And there`s a lot more pressure on him now because of these compelling hearings.
So, I do think the strategy of waiting until the hearings so that the American people understand all of the evidence, and then asking Trump and Pence to come testify has a lot of strategic merit to it.
RUHLE: OK, then I have to ask, I know we`re out of time. But when Daniels talking strategy, Joyce, it`s got me wondering, is this the exact strategy that the Department of Justice always wanted? Right. An overwhelming amount of evidence comes out. It`s the January 6 committee over the course of seven soon to be eight hearings, laying it out for the American people with mostly Trump appointees or employees.
And over time, you`re hearing more and more Republicans, whether they`re establishment Republicans, the Mick Mulvaneys of the world, conservative judges saying Trump did something seriously wrong here, some even saying he should be charged. Is this what the Department of Justice wants, so when it comes time for them to drop the hammer, it`s going to be very hard to say that this is a partisan hit job?
VANCE: DOJ may or may have benefited in a most unusual way from the committee`s proceedings. But typically, if you`re at DOJ, you don`t want any other investigators to get out in front of you. And that`s because of technical reasons, involving evidence that you have to turn over to defendants in the course of a criminal prosecution. For instance, you`re under some obligation to turn over any other statements that your witnesses have made.
So as a prosecutor, the last thing I want to see happening is to see Congress interviewing my witnesses under oath for hours and generating written transcripts. That`s just really anathema to prosecutors. So whether this was intentional from the outset, that seems very dubious to me, whether DOJ might benefit from it in the long run is an entirely different question.
RUHLE: Well, there is nothing usual happening here. Jackie Alemany, Daniel Goldman, Joyce Vance, thank you all so much for being here. If only I had time for Jackie to tell us what is in the cupcake tonight. When we come back, you know what, you know what, Jackie, we`re at a time I`m going to need you to open it, photograph it and tweeted at us.
Coming up, with so much damaging information coming out about Donald Trump and January 6, we`re going to go dig deep into what Republicans are saying about it. And here`s a quick spoiler alert. The answer is nothing.
And later, Biden said to meet with Saudi Arabian leaders, after once promising to make the country a pariah. Ben Rhodes is here on the President`s high stakes Middle East trip. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a busy Thursday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): President Trump tried to call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President Trump`s call and instead alerted their lawyer to the call. Their lawyer alerted us. And this committee has supplied that information to the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The shocking revelations about the former guy keep emerging to radio silence from Republican Party leaders.
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But those same leaders are expected to be in attendance when Trump returns to Washington on July 26, to address the America First Policy Institute. So let`s discuss, A.B. Stoddard joins us, veteran Washington journalist and associate editor and columnist for Real Clear Politics. And David Jolly, who had not seen in quite some time, former Republican congressman from Florida. He`s now chairman of the Serve America Movement and an MSNBC political contributor.
David, what is with the radio silence from Republicans? We were supposed — Elise Stefanik was the one we thought was going to be in charge of sort of the counter attack, the messaging on the other side of these hearings. And it`s as though Republican leadership is all away at summer camp.
DAVID JOLLY, SERVE AMERICA MOVEMENT CHAIRMAN: Well, because it is going so disastrously bad for the former president. And Stephanie, I don`t know that going into the hearings we knew the exact strategy this committee would take. But this is now unfolding more like a grand jury indictment. I mean, they are singularly isolating Donald Trump, as the culpable actor. This is not a thorough examination of the wider network, though, that has touched on every hearing points to one individual, Donald Trump.
And so Republicans have very little in the way of defense, and look, many of them are actually in bed with him. This is the caucus that enabled him as his COVID policy led to the death of Americans as he did nothing about school shootings, as his immigration policy separated family and led to the death of children.
So the notion that the former president would get in bed with the Proud Boys and risk life and limb and harm to fellow countrymen on January 6th, that`s just par for the course for this Republican Party and the former president.
RUHLE: OK, well, this guy lost the election, lost before January 6, even happened. So now if you think about how America as a whole feels about him, A.B., we know he or he is reportedly determined to announce his 2024 candidates see sooner rather than later, is that Republicans want or are they watching these hearings? After watching this guy lose an election and saying please don`t do it. Anybody, anybody but you.
A.B. STODDARD, REAL CLEAR POLITICS ASSOC. EDITOR AND COLUMIST: Just look to the anonymous quote in that piece on the report that he`s so tempted to not even make it to September to announce his next presidential campaign, from some top prominent Republican strategist talking about how selfish Donald Trump is.
Donald Trump has not heard about the Republican Party since 2015 when he talked about this, `16 when he won the nomination throughout his presidency, and beyond. If he has to break the Republican Party to serve his psychological needs, he`s happy to do so. They know this. That`s why there`s some kind of all-point bulletin stuff where no one, even someone liberated, who`s retiring like Senator Blunt, or Senator Burr or Senator Portman can talk about the hearings, everybody has to be mom, because their single focus is regaining control of the House, and hopefully a majority in the Senate.
And so they`re so afraid of him rolling up their chances in November, that they`ve all been told to be silent. They`re pretending that they`re busy. They haven`t seen it. And that`s why it`s really important. It is doing damage to his base. That`s why you see in the polling, it`s important to note there are people that believe in focus group and polling, it`s time to move on Donald Trump. It`s not that they don`t love him, but they know he`s been damaged by this. That`s why DeSantis is on the rise. That`s a threat to him.
And it will make him even more vocal about his new big lie, which is the January 6 committee. He`s going to be, you know, announcing his run for the presidency, anything he can to regain the spotlight and attention and it`s to the horror of Republicans, and, of course, by abiding and abetting him, they all deserve it.
RUHLE: Then, David, if the Republican plan is to stay silent, should Democrats plan be to get really loud? Because these midterms are not about policy. What are you doing on the economy? How are you facing inflation? Our democracy is in danger. We are hearing throughout the hearings, about how close we were to losing our democracy.
And while that`s happening, the Supreme Court is rolling back civil liberties. The GOP taking extreme measures against abortion, blocking a bill today to protect travel for abortion. Are Democrats effectively communicating how dire the situation is? This ain`t no regular election.
JOLLY: Yes, it`s not — I love that question, Stephanie. Because most elections in modern political history, our turnout elections, you get your base riled up, you get them upset, anger, motivated, whatever it might be. This is actually one of the rare elections where there may be a persuadable constituency.
To your point if you can speak to the American people in a way where they understand that some of their very rights are now hanging in the balance based on who controls the levers of government in a way that we have not seen for perhaps 50 or 100 years.
[23:30:10]
Now you have persuadable voters go to the Dobbs case, for instance, this is a perfect example. We know the two sides are going to motivate their base that feels strongly about it. But coming out of Dobbs, there is a — there are tens of millions of Americans who previously may have never identified themselves as pro-choice. Perhaps it was just kind of an anathema term to their orientation. But they`re realizing they were pro Roe all along.
If Democrats can have conversations with those constituencies and say, look, the Republicans are really reaching for fundamental rights, and you are at risk of losing them, then I think Democrats could turn around the way that seemed to be going a few months ago, and might have a more favorable November.
RUHLE: A.B., yesterday, the House passed a bill that would create an act and alert system for active shooter situations. And 168 Republicans voted against it. Who are they doing that for? I`m thinking of all sorts of suburban Republicans, who six months ago love talking about how woke America was getting, and they needed to start voting for Republicans again, because things were getting too progressive. All of those people, they care about active shooter situations.
STODDARD: That`s true. And that`s why Steph it`s not just Roe, which I think, you know, the data is showing is extremely energizing for voters in every age group, who are pro-life, people who believe that abortion should be safe, legal and rare, but do not want it to be illegal, as David said, who realized now they are pro-Roe for pro-choice for soft Republicans, for independent for Democrats who never plan to vote in these midterm elections.
I think in addition to that, the findings, the revelations from these hearings on January 6, and the coup that began in November of 2020, or before, and took place all through November and December, and led to the failed coup on January 6, and all these mass shootings and the Republicans response to them collectively, are extremely galvanizing as a collective.
And so there are people who really cannot tolerate the Republican response to mass shootings anymore. They are turning on the Republican Party for that reason. And then they of course, you have the shock in response to what they`re hearing about Trump and his abettors on January 6, and then of course, the reaction to Roe I think it`s a basket of things that are making people furious, and that they didn`t expect inflation was so infuriating.
I think that they just didn`t expect that they would have these issues that might turn out new voters. The inflation voter (ph), as I`ve said, I think is probably still turning up. But I think it a woke — it awakened a different set of voters who just aren`t going to tolerate, you know, action or inaction on these issues anymore. And that`s why I think it`s going to be a different makeup of the electorate.
RUHLE: This is an election about democracy. A.B. Stoddard, David Jolly, thank you both for joining us tonight. I appreciate it. Great to see you both. Coming up. President Biden`s high, high stakes trip to Saudi Arabia. Our dear friend Ben Rhodes is here to break down why he thinks this visit is quote, sadly inevitable, when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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23:38:14]
RUHLE: The President`s first visit to the Middle East since taking office has gone off largely without a hitch. But tomorrow, President Biden is set to meet with Saudi leaders, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, with us tonight to discuss is Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser for President Obama.
Ben, I`m really glad you`re here tonight. This is a complicated trip. During his campaign, Biden promised to make Saudi Arabia a pariah. But you say this meeting was inevitable?
BEN RHODES, FMR. OBAMA DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY: Well, I`m not happy about it. I wish this meeting wasn`t taking place. And look, I`ve been in the White House. And what happens is, you`re looking at a lot of problems coming at you. And they`re thinking, we have a huge problem from inflation. If we can get the Saudis and OPEC to do any more oil production, maybe that would help. We have a huge challenge with the war in Ukraine. And we don`t want the Saudis and Emiratis who`ve been kind of sitting on that war to drift in the direction of Russia and China. You`ve got this Abraham accords. That is a Trump initiative in which the Gulf states are drawn closer to Israel. That`s a lot to do with Iran and their opposition to Iran.
So they`re all these short term reasons that could compel a President to say it`s easier to just make up with MBS and the Saudis get this over with, rip this band aid off. But the biggest problem, the bigger problem, Stephanie, is that, you know, the two existential challenges that we face as a country that we feel every day, is the collapse of democracy all around us, and climate change.
And in the long run, those short term impulses that I think are compelling this trip, you know, they end up winning the day over the things that we really have to do in the long run. At some point I really think that has to change.
[23:40:05]
RUHLE: I hear you, Ben. But here`s the problem. We live in a world of short termism and those long term solutions that we desperately need, President Biden or other Democrats aren`t even going to get a chance to address those things if they get wiped out come November.
So once this war took place in Ukraine, isn`t it sort of all bets are off, and if Biden doesn`t address the things surrounding inflation, then all the other things he`s going to look to get done are going to get a whole heck of a lot harder? He`s certainly not saying, oh, MBS He`s my boy. I`m all in. But he`s got a problem he`s got to solve.
RHODES: Yes, I think that`s definitely what tipped it for them. I think the war in Ukraine, and the shortages with Russian oil coming off the market to the U.S. and Europe, is probably the thing that kind of tipped over a policy decision that Joe Biden probably didn`t want to make and going to MBS.
I also think, Stephanie, that if you really look at this, you know, most analysis is, there`s not that much increased production capacity that can come out of Saudi Arabia and the UAE, our refineries are clicking in 95 percent as it is, there`s just broader shocks and global energy markets. And I think, you know, an increasing reluctance from the Saudis to kind of bail us out.
I think on this trip you`ll probably hear some good talk out of Saudi Arabia. But, you know, I don`t think MBS is a reliable actor here. And the question is, is he going to follow through on that top, and there`s somebody that`s invested $2 billion, and Jared Kushner is, you know, investment knowledge is that person, really someone who wants to help Joe Biden, along the lines that you`re saying, you know, make it through the midterms and make it into 2024? I just don`t trust the guy.
And I do think at the end of the day, when you`re framing this, rightly, is a question of democracy versus autocracy in this country and around the world. You know, MBS is on the wrong side of that debate.
RUHLE: So that right there, do you think this isn`t — this is a bigger risk, you go to Saudi Arabia, you tried to play ball, didn`t want to play ball with us? I mean, truly, MBS wrote a massive check to Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner during stopped the steal. That`s where he was he was overseas locking in his next career. So is this administration foolish to think they could ever get anything done with somebody like MBs, especially given who he is so the Trump family?
RHODES: I think that they have to have and probably do have pretty low expectations about just how much they can get out of MBS here. You know, they`ll get a little bit more on the normalization process with Israel, which frankly, was already in trained because the Saudis have back these Abraham accords from behind the scenes. They might get some positive statements on energy markets that help in the immediate term.
But in the long run, you still have that image of a president of United States going to MBS, after the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, and, frankly, after a lot of other problematic behavior of multiyear war in Yemen, that was a mistake for the Obama administration to support, it`s been a mistake to continue us support ever since then. You`ve had Saudi support for withdrawing from the Iran deal, and now you have Iran on the doorstep of having enough material for nuclear weapon.
So again, I just don`t think that in the long run the cost of those images with MBS, and how that`s going to complete the kind of laundering of his reputation. He`s been trying everything from a golf lead to a Justin Bieber conference. He`s been trying everything to open back those floodgates of the businesses and the investments are coming back into Saudi Arabia. That`s what this — that`s what`s in it for MBS. And that`s a lot here.
And I think in the long run, he`s not a reliable partner and friend of the United States, certainly not of a Democratic president. But you know, as I said, I don`t put this all on Joe Biden. I think most people in the White House will be doing what he`s doing for all the reasons that you`ve cited. I just think at some point, we have to address this gap between what we say the story we tell about who we are in the world and democracy and climate change and what the world sees us doing.
RUHLE: Ben Rhodes, every time you were here, you make us smarter. I`m really grateful you joined us tonight.
RHODES: Thanks, Stephanie. Coming up, a cloud of controversy hangs over police for their delayed response in Uvalde. Texas. State senator Roland Gutierrez is here to talk about all of it on THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:48:55]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What grade did you just finish?
JAYDIEN CANIZALES, UVALDE, TEXAS SURVIVOR: Fourth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So tell me about what happened at the end of your school year? Why are you here today?
CANIZALES: So we can ban weapons now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why is that so important?
CANIZALES: So no one has to go through what I gone through at school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: That`s a 10-year-old survivor of the massacre and Uvalde, Texas. The community now demanding answers after disturbing video from inside Robb Elementary School was edited and released by the Austin American Statesman in KVUE. Here`s how Governor Greg Abbott responded when he was asked about the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R) TEXAS: Obviously is disgusting. To see what happened is clear that what was shown on the video was the exact opposite of the information that I was given on the day that I went out and explained what happened during the event. None of the information that was in that video was shared with me on that day. And so it was shocking.
[23:50:02]
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RUHLE: Shocking. With us tonight to discuss, Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez. His district includes Uvalde. Thank you so much for being here. I know what a brutal last two months you have had. Help me understand this. The governor is saying he is shocked. He`s disgusted by what he saw in that video. It`s the opposite of what he was told that day. He`s the governor of Texas. Why didn`t he see this video anytime over the last seven weeks? I would think he or any other official in the state should have seen that day too.
STATE SEN. ROLAND GUTIERREZ (D) TEXAS 19th DISTICT: No, that`s right, Stephanie. I saw snippets of it. When I wanted to see all of it I was asked to sign an NDA. And I refused. My constituents wanted to see the truth and wanted to know the truth. And they wanted to do it in the right way. And so I ended up filing a lawsuit against the Department of Public Safety.
Greg Abbott is ignorant because he wants to be. He doesn`t want to know the truth, actually does know it. He hasn`t been back to Uvalde since day three. Never went to one single funeral. I don`t think that he cares enough about the kids of Texas because he has failed to call a special session to bring us back. And in put an end to having 18-year olds have access to these types of weapons. He refuses to do that.
RUHLE: I need to interrupt you. You wanted to see a video. You`re an elected official. Uvalde is in your district, you wanted to see a video of what happened inside that school. And they asked you to sign an NDA? What was the rationale?
GUTIERREZ: That`s the state that we`re living in here in Texas. It`s — This is the kind of stuff that happens in Venezuela, happens in Russia. And unfortunately, it happens here in Texas. The facts are the reason I saw three minutes of a video is because I barged into a DPS trailer and an argument with one of their PIOs. As I walked out, I saw about three minutes of a different video.
The video I saw was closer to the room that this man had sheltered himself in. And as he fired out to the police, you could see construction material sheet rock flying in over their heads. They have not shown you that video, because they don`t want people to see the awesome power, the fearful, horrible power of these AR-15s.
We saw all sorts of props in these investigations and in these hearings in the Senate and the House of Representatives, but we never saw an AR-15 because they don`t want to be having that discussion, Stephanie.
RUHLE: So what information are these families getting? If you an elected official can`t get information, what are the mothers and fathers? What are they being told?
GUTIERREZ: Half-truths, innuendo, finger pointing. This is the worst response in law enforcement history in our modern times in the state of Texas. Absolutely. The fact is there were 12 DPS troopers, even in the video that made for TV video, we don`t see those 12 troopers. The only reason that came out was because I cross examined Steve McCraw do that, during his testimony in the Senate. This is where we`re at. This is the kind of government we`re dealing with in Texas.
RUHLE: So where are we going to go from here? Are they going to — are police going to face any consequences? Is this current Texas government going to face any consequences, or not if they keep getting reelected?
GUTIERREZ: No, that`s the unfortunate thing. It`s my hope that Stephanie that people finally get tired of this. They finally get tired of the neglect. And as I`ve done my own investigations, you`ll start to see very soon that in Texas, there are many things that led up to this massacre, including the fact that Greg Abbott knew about the failed radios.
The other thing that was important about that video is that everybody was on their cell phones. They were on their cell phones because the radio systems didn`t work. The governor has known that for seven years, and he`s been asked for money to fix those radio systems for seven counties. And he has refused. This is a story of what`s left.
RUHLE: Those kids just went to school that day, with two days left in the year. Senator, thank you for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. Roland Gutierrez. I appreciate it. But I wish I wasn`t seeing it. That is actually how I feel.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you.
RUHLE: Coming up. How Buffalo grocery store targeted in a racist attack has now become a symbol of triumph when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, love beats hate. It has been two months since a gunman opened fire at a top supermarket in Buffalo New York, killing 10 people and leaving a tight knit community in mourning.
Today the Justice Department announced that a federal grand jury charged the 19-year-old gunman of 27 counts of hate crimes and firearm violations. He also faces 10 counts of first degree murder and 10 counts of second degree murder in the state of New York.
A moment of silence and prayer was held today outside the Tops friendly market store to honor the victims and employees impacted by the shooting.
Now fully remodeled, the store will reopen to the public for the first time tomorrow morning. Shoppers will be greeted by this water Wall Memorial inscribed to the poem by Julian Handsworth, a poet laureate from Buffalo. It reads in part, let the hopeful healing waters flow, cleansing all pain and fear all hurt and regret. Let the water heal our people. Buffalo`s Mayor Byron Brown spoke about the importance of the stores reopening at the prayer service today.
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BYRON BROWN, BUFFALO MAYOR: How everyone has come together for the opening of our tops on Jefferson Avenue is proof positive that love beats hate. We will take this place of tragedy, and in the days, the weeks, the months, the years to come, it will be a national and worldwide example of a place of triumph.
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RUHLE: Amen to that. Love beats hate in East Buffalo, New York tonight. May that be a lesson to us all.
And on that note, I wish you all a very good night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I will see you at the end of tomorrow.